Utah Business partnered with Dentons Durham Jones Pinegar to host a roundtable featuring Utah’s legal experts this month. Moderated by N. Todd Leishman, managing shareholder of the Dentons Durham Jones Pinegar Salt Lake City office, they discussed competition, diversity, AI and more. Here are a few highlights from the event. 

What changes are we seeing in our market? How are we managing them?

Keith M. Woodwell | Management Committee Member | Clyde Snow & Sessions

We learned from Covid that you can work from home and still do great, efficient work. Clients have even come to like being remote. It’s easier to avoid having to come downtown and park and figure out how to get to the building and do the in-person meeting. More of everything will be remote in the future. 

Brian Tarbet | Chief Civil Deputy | Office of the Utah Attorney General

Covid has changed the character of the practice. During Covid, we went too heavy remote working, and we’re trying to put that genie back in the bottle because we’ve lost some mentoring opportunities by mainly using Teams or Google. Part of why we went remote was space demands. We were bursting at the seams before. Now, we would like to get back to a happy medium.

Adam Smoot | Shareholder | Maschoff Brennan

For our younger associates, Covid has been a disservice. They haven’t gotten the experience of walking down the hall and sitting down in someone’s office just to talk through what they’re working on. To change this, we’ve encouraged our associates and partners to be in the office more. We also have dedicated mentors for younger attorneys to help bring them along and intentionally facilitate growth.

Jesse Flores | Partner & IP Attorney | TraskBritt, P.C.

Return-to-office policies have been appearing recently. We haven’t enforced a return-to-office policy, and I think it would be difficult to do so since our workforce is dispersed across the nation now—which is in line with our hiring practices during Covid.

Michael Bailey | Shareholder & Director, Strategic Growth | Parsons Behle & Latimer

Parsons has always had one policy across all its offices. We learned that can no longer be the case because, in our nine offices, we have nine different groups of people. We’ve gone out to each office and set up different policies for every office because one size doesn’t fit all. To add to the flexibility, we also created a three-tier billing system for our associates, allowing them to pick different tracks and still make shareholder and have a wonderful career.

Rebecca Hill | Attorney, Civil Litigation | Christensen & Jensen, P.C.

I have seen a change in the Salt Lake City market with the number of national firms coming in. There was constant hiring for a few years after Covid because people were moving and salaries were changing. Many of our legal fee rates have increased to match growing salaries. We didn’t raise rates during Covid, but now we are playing with that. In litigation, jury verdicts have dramatically changed in the last three or four years as newer generations bring their views and culture to Salt Lake City.

Robert Walker | Attorney | Kirton & McConkie

There was a time when high salaries and fantastic benefits were enough to keep younger associates. Now, it’s tied to culture. Figuring out that culture and developing it is an experience that acknowledges and pursues diversity, inclusion, mental wellness and relationships. 

Bob Babcock | President | Babcock Scott & Babcock

In our current market, with big law coming to town, the expectations on younger associates are much higher than before. I’m concerned about the pressure our associates are under and how we are helping them manage it. Are we creating time bombs of stress in our younger associates when we start dangling big dollars and they bail on wanting a certain culture and lifestyle? Do they have time to serve in the community? Do they have time for family? Are they too tied to the treadmill? The money’s terrific, but we must have a different culture. 

Jess Krannich | Partner | Kirkland & Ellis

Our legal market is growing up. The legal talent in Salt Lake City is as good as or better than any other market we’re in, and market changes have allowed our talent to shine. Clients are seeing that, creating a greater demand for high-end legal services. 

Jonathan Hafen | Shareholder | Parr Brown Gee & Loveless

I am very optimistic about where Utah is and where we’re headed. We can better withstand economic and financial challenges because we have a diverse economy and an incredibly talented workforce. We have plenty to do because companies here know how to innovate and grow, and they need sophisticated legal services. Graduating law students need to consider Utah from a business standpoint but also because of the choice of law firms and cultures.

Beau Burbidge | Partner | Burbidge | Mitchell

We have seen the need to be flexible with younger associates and have an attractive culture. Many young people we’ve hired have two-income households and need flexible schedules.

Graden Jackson | Attorney | Strong & Hanni

We are being intentional about training by approaching it differently than we have in the past with something we call Hanni University. It will help us compete with the national firms coming in. We’ve determined we’re just going all in on Utah. 

Monica Call | Partner | Foley & Lardner LLP

I’m happy that legal talent doesn’t have to go out of state for great experience. They can get it here by serving the needs of our clients because those client needs have developed. It’s nice not to compete with the coastal firms; we can offer the same salaries, a different culture and a sustainable path in a legal career that’s different than going to the coastal markets.

What does the talent profile look like right now?

Brian Tarbet | Chief Civil Deputy | Office of the Utah Attorney General

Last winter, the legislature did an extraordinary thing and gave us the pay package we requested. Compensation was a problem; we could not keep people. They gave us $5 million to implement it effective April 1. They did their job. They listened to us. Fortunately, some legislators have children working in this market, so they heard it from several perspectives. Now, we’re competitive again. For us, it was a money thing. We have always had a culture that works; we give people interesting legal work and put them in the ring early. 

Blake Bauman | Attorney | Ray Quinney & Nebeker P.C.

Rising tides lift all boats. Big law firms coming to Utah made us think about how we value the talent we feared losing. It helped us refocus and attract talent. Our law firm’s summer clerkship program started yesterday, and we have an extensive summer clerkship program this year. It’s exciting that we could attract this high-quality talent from all over the country. 

How are client expectations changing?

Keith M. Woodwell | Management Committee Member | Clyde Snow & Sessions

We’re sensing from our clients that more work is staying here instead of being sent to coastal firms. There is a perception that there’s a larger legal talent base here in Salt Lake City, and the clients don’t have to go out to seek that. If we had a volatility measure for law firms, there was a considerable spike in the last couple of years with the number of national firms moving in and the level of movement of associates from firm to firm. We’re past that spike and stable now. 

Bob Babcock | President | Babcock Scott & Babcock

We represent many small businesses, and it’s been a challenge as rates have increased faster. The cost of resolution is more of an issue now than it has been, and that will continue to be the case. It’s an ever-growing pressure for smaller businesses to decide, “What can I do? What can I afford? How much is this going to cost? Maybe we don’t fight. We just roll over, and we move on with life.”

Is momentum in our market pricing certain populations out of legal services? 

Carson Pearson | Managing Partner | Pearson Butler

We’ve seen that the demand for legal services is not being met among employees of large corporations and small business owners. People are on waiting lists for two to six weeks; they can’t get into competent council. We must figure out how to meet that demand, or, systemically, it bleeds out and changes our economy. 

Adam Smoot | Shareholder | Maschoff Brennan

We credit associates for their pro bono work, and we have service projects we do as a group. We often include our staff and feel like having a culture where we serve together is valuable.

Monica Call | Partner | Foley & Lardner LLP

We give 100 hours of pro bono credit to associates to count toward their billable hour requirement. That helps them feel they don’t have to take time away to invest in that. For our litigators, it’s been an important way for them to get experience. Those pro bono cases help them get time on their feet and help us make sure we serve underprivileged communities fully. 

What issues should policymakers in Utah address to maintain business development, momentum and expansion?

Amy Sorenson | Partner | Snell & Wilmer LLP

We should monitor judges’ compensation and equal access to justice. Our excellent state and federal court judges create an ideal business climate but are chronically overworked and understaffed. We must keep their compensation comparable to market changes. As for access to justice, one stubborn truth is there isn’t a substitute for a great lawyer. It would be great to see the excitement and dedication to public service our lawyers have matched by the legislature with supportive initiatives.

Rebecca Hill | Attorney, Civil Litigation | Christensen & Jensen, P.C.

Besides judicial pay, we have several criminal defense attorneys in our firm, and the pay rate for criminal defense council for the indigent is unmatched. It’s difficult. It’s got to change. 

What can law firms do to attract a more diverse workforce?

Jon Wayas | Associate Director | Utah Center for Legal Inclusion

There’s a short-term and long-term view of how we can build more diversity into our market. Long term, there is just naturally more diversity coming up in Utah. But many kids come from backgrounds where they’ve never met a lawyer. Attorneys should get to know them and let them know being an attorney is an option. Short-term, diverse students are coming through law school, but they need more flexibility in the workplace. Many diverse law students are attracted to criminal law or immigration law and feel like big law is a betrayal of why they went to law school. Programs that pay for pro bono work tell students they can have both worlds.

Jess Krannich | Partner | Kirkland & Ellis

There’s a perception that female attorneys shouldn’t go to big law firms because they’re not conducive to having a family. I want to challenge that. My wife was a Kirkland lawyer, and we had two children while both of us were working. She has long said she couldn’t imagine working on any other platform when we had kids because the parental leave support we had wouldn’t have been available on other platforms. There is a misperception that our way of life is not conducive to having a family, especially if you’re at a big law firm; that’s not true.

Amy Sorenson | Partner | Snell & Wilmer LLP

As a group, we can build enthusiasm around civil litigation for applicants and law students of diverse backgrounds. We need to make civil litigation, civil business practice and transactional practice more accessible and more intuitive to people who are first-generation lawyers. It’s a great career with wonderful benefits; it’s just not a familiar aspect of law. 

Graden Jackson | Attorney | Strong & Hanni

It’s a long game. None of our firms will solve this in one, two or even five years. It starts by giving scholarships to high school graduates and having them work somewhere in the law firm environment, and then mentoring and suggesting law school.

Robert Walker | Attorney | Kirton & McConkie

We have a responsibility to lift talent out of underserved populations. There are many opportunities to provide resources and mentorship and develop relationships that will bring talent into our firms. At some point, we need to stop planning and start acting.

Some statistics show decreasing age and increasing diversity of law firm management. What good things can we expect from that trend? 

Blake Bauman | Attorney | Ray Quinney & Nebeker P.C.

We have more practice group leaders in the first half of their careers now. The benefit is new and fresh ideas and a focus on diversity and balance. There is a path forward for capable younger attorneys who can accomplish the firm’s vision.

Jon Wayas | Associate Director | Utah Center for Legal Inclusion

Nationally, the percentage of women to men in law school is about 60/40; more women attend law school than men, but we do not see that come through on the other end. Where are all the women we’re educating going, and why aren’t they entering the market? We’re watching this trend to see if there’s a reason why it’s happening.

Michael Bailey | Shareholder & Director, Strategic Growth | Parsons Behle & Latimer

For many years, firms have tried to attract a diverse group of lawyers. Now, the focus is on retention. We must ensure women lawyers, young lawyers and lawyers of color are given opportunities to work in firm leadership and have career paths where they can succeed. As we do that, we lift those lawyers and improve our firms.

How are technological advancements like AI developing in the legal sector? How will they change our industry and work?

Jonathan Hafen | Shareholder | Parr Brown Gee & Loveless

AI is another tool that will help us be more effective by taking over menial work lawyers tend to enjoy the least. There’s no replacement for good lawyers because you need to read and write analytically, read the room, understand the client, understand the party on the other side and figure out how to solve your client’s problem given several different personalities and viewpoints. I don’t see a piece of technology doing that.

Jesse Flores | Partner & IP Attorney | TraskBritt, P.C.

AI could help in four ways: legal research, document preparation, database entry and backend support. The one with the most safety right now is document preparation, but overall, it’s just not there. Our attorneys and agents are safe in the tractional and transactional loss spectrum for IP.